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InvisiblePoison Drink
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Lactuca spp.
    #16245877 - 05/17/12 03:43 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

While taking a walk through a botanical garden, I encountered some Lactuca virosa plants:



These are the same plants about a week later:



I remember reading about some interesting experiences on the lactucarium these plants contains. This 'opium lettuce' grows in the wild around here, so I decided to try and find it. I'm not planning to plunder the botanical garden! Though they're not that easy to find, especially compared to dandelions, which grow abundantly (and look a bit like Lactuca spp. from afar).

Here are some of my finds so far:



There were only two of these plants growing in that location. They're also in proximity to people's front doors, so I fear they won't be able to grow to maturity.



I'm not very sure about these. They have little hairs on the underside of the vein, and the leaves are clasping the stem, though the leaves are much smaller compared to those of the botanical garden. I'm also wondering if all of the above might be Lactuca serriola?

How many plants should I use to make the extraction worthwhile, and can I use the leaves and the stem? I'm planning to wait until those plants get bigger to harvest them. Maybe I could get some seeds to propagate them next year.

Any input on these plants is welcome!

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InvisibleAuxin
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16248610 - 05/18/12 02:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It seems botanical gardens are the same everywhere, lol.
Those are not L. virosa, virosa has broader leaves especially near the base and looks more like a vegetable.
Not sure what the gardens species is, those wild ones look like serriola or something close to it.
Yes the goodies are in the stem too, classically farmers waited until plants were about to flower and then they would cut off the flower head and collect the latex in a dish, walk down the row doing that, then go back to the beginning and cut off another slice and collect more. One of my old medical books describes how to do it, lol. They wait til near flowering because 1) more latex, 2) more potent and they milk it like some perverted poppy because that maximizes yield (while making it obscenely time consuming)
One could just yank the plant out the ground, wash the dirt off, and run it through an electric juicer if you have one, then dry the latex.
The primary active constituents are poorly soluble in water so the latex or plant juice is better than decocting it and boiling it down into tar.


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InvisibleKBG1977
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: Auxin]
    #16248835 - 05/18/12 06:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I swear I think this grows all around me.Next time I see it,I'll post a pic:-)

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InvisiblePoison Drink
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: KBG1977]
    #16314267 - 05/31/12 10:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So I went hunting again, and found quite some patches of what I think to be Lactuca spp.. Any confirmation is appreciated! Crappy pictures because it was next to a busy road.



This is only a small part of the plants I located. I came across multiple specimens as large as the one in the first picture, so an extraction seems to be worthwhile.

I found this YT video about extracting the plant:



He seems to boil the plants in a pressure cooker, while another extraction method claims boiling water will kill the potency.. And the "cut off a slice and collect the latex, repeat" method is quite time consuming and not very ideal if you have to do it in a public place. Any input is greatly appreciated!

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Offlinelimentroll
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16315341 - 06/01/12 06:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

More Lactuca, but not the right specie.


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InvisiblePoison Drink
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: limentroll]
    #16461577 - 06/30/12 05:03 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I did a little more research and found out that Lactuca serriola comes in two different types. One has deeply lobed leaves and the other looks exactly like the plants I've found. This is the source  (page 362-363). I'll try to harvest and extract some plants one of these days. Though I hope they haven't wilted by now, since they seem to be growing fast! Here's a picture of the botanical garden "Lactuca virosa" which I took several weeks ago:


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OfflineRen
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16461607 - 06/30/12 05:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

That does not look like a latuca species. I have a little knowledge from wild latuca foraging for the purely edible type. I am by no means an expert, and for your sake I hope I'm wrong :laugh:
Quote:

Poison Drink said:
So I went hunting again, and found quite some patches of what I think to be Lactuca spp.. Any confirmation is appreciated! Crappy pictures because it was next to a busy road.



This is only a small part of the plants I located. I came across multiple specimens as large as the one in the first picture, so an extraction seems to be worthwhile.





That does not look like a latuca species. I have a little knowledge from wild latuca foraging for the purely edible type. I am by no means an expert, and for your sake I hope I'm wrong :laugh:

There are maybe 50+ species that look similar to this. Take for example Crepis Japonica which is an uber common edible around my parts. Be careful and get an experts opinion before you ingest this guy.

Is the sap white?

Is there a central ridge of hair on the underside of the leaf?


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InvisiblePoison Drink
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: Ren]
    #16462051 - 06/30/12 07:30 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ren said:
Be careful and get an experts opinion before you ingest this guy.




Ofcourse, I'm not going to ingest anything without being certain it's the right plant. I went to a nearby spot to harvest a couple of plants, just to calmly inspect them at home. I had to bend the stems so they would fit in my backpack, and I have to say they have quite a pungent smell.



Quote:

Ren said:
Is the sap white?




Yes, I broke a leave off of the stem and immediately a white sap leaked from the wound. I smeared some of the sap on my finger and tasted it with the tip of my tongue. Very bitter and the taste is similar to the sap of P. somniferum so far as I remember. Even the leaves 'bleed' white sap.




Quote:

Ren said:
Is there a central ridge of hair on the underside of the leaf?




Yes, more like little thorns. They also have these little thorns on their stem, concentrated at the base.



Anyway thanks for the help so far! I do realize there's quite a lot of look alike weeds.

PS: sorry for the shitty pictures. :grin:

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Invisiblekarode13Facebook
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16462135 - 06/30/12 07:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'd say you're on to something and I'd be inclined to bioassay. Look into it further before you do though. If it's inactive it wont do harm. Here's another link with botanical information>>link

And a quote to rule this one out:

Quote:

Confused With: Lactuca saligna but that species lacks spines on lower stems but may sometimes have a few spines on the midrib of the lower side of leaves.




Taken from here


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InvisiblePoison Drink
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: karode13]
    #16462379 - 06/30/12 09:00 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Indeed, I'm having a good feeling about this plant. And I was also thinking it wouldn't do much harm if it turned out to be an inactive plant. But are you positive about this?

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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16462609 - 06/30/12 09:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yes. If it were me in your position I would.

Again, it's up to you to be sure what you consume is safe. If you're doubtful post elsewhere to get confirmation and second opinions. No harm in doing that.


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InvisiblePoison Drink
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: karode13]
    #16470427 - 07/02/12 01:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

karode13 said:
Again, it's up to you to be sure what you consume is safe. If you're doubtful post elsewhere to get confirmation and second opinions. No harm in doing that.




Well, Ren gave me some doubt by saying "There are maybe 50+ species that look similar to this". But he's right! Today while walking around, I encountered a very similar looking plant, though it had a lot of offshoots with flower buds over the whole length of the stem. I presume that L. serriola only has flowers at the top of the plant.. Yet I think most of these weeds are edible, but I'm definitely not a botanist so I might consult a book about indigenous weeds or ask someone with knowledge. Any input is greatly appreciated!

Oh and I started making an extract already. The water is getting very brown after 10+ hours of soaking in warm water. But I'm going to wait consuming it until I have more certainty.

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OfflineWorld Seed SupplyV
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16473496 - 07/03/12 02:38 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

To be honest, from far away the plants you showed didn't look like lactuca to me. But upon closer inspection I can see that they do.

Lactuca virosa can have a somewhat variable appearance, and I think that throws people off when trying to ID. I've seen plants with skinnier stems look like the closeup pics you have right above (and the botanical garden pics). And I don't just mean that it is variable in terms of genetics. I had thick plants that were cut back.  Here is a picture of the leaves on the thick stalks http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=302906119787995&set=a.120635484681727.23493.100002058285327&type=3&theater

That is generally how they look. (Fatter with rough edges) But there were some thinner plants. Those thinner plants and some of the new shoots that have grown back from the plants that were cut back have leaves that look more like what you showed above. And if you look at your leaves, they do have the rough edges. The details are just less pronounced. 

If I get some time tomorrow, I will try to take some pictures of the shoots so that I am not just going off memory. But I would not question the plants at the botanical garden.  And I would not rule out your plant, especially if you think they look exactly the same.

But it is true that there are a lot of lookalikes. But with that said, the lookalikes usually contain similar alkaloids, and you do not have to worry about them being poisonous as far as I know. But you've already seen that they have latex (a good sign) and you say they smell pungent.  I never really thought of wild lettuce having a pungent smell. But I was dealing with it a lot the past few weeks, and the smell does stick out. It's a sweet smell like that of romaine lettuce....but more pronounced. You can also sometimes notice that bitter taste in certain heads of romaine or others. Domestic lettuce is the result of trying to breed those traits out to make it more palatable. But they still linger, and you can use you experience with domestic lettuce to help you distinguish it from other plants.


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InvisiblePoison Drink
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #16474546 - 07/03/12 11:00 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for your extensive explanation WSS! The plants in that picture look a lot different compared to mine, but maybe it's because I might have L. serriola and you're showing L. virosa. Also, your plants look more crop-like, compared to my lanky specimens. I don't think my plants look exactly like the ones of the botanical garden. Those plants also have a crop-like appearance and begin to grow in height when they're about to flower. The smell wasn't extremely pungent, but it was definitely noticeable when bruising the stem. I don't think it was a sweat smell though.

Here's my little setup:



After around 2 days of soaking in warm water, I sifted the plant matter out with a towel:



Now the water has a brown color, which I believe is a good sign. The taste and smell is hard to describe. I guess it's bitter because the taste is mainly perceived at the back of my tongue.

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OfflineWorld Seed SupplyV
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16475137 - 07/03/12 01:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I say sweet smelling, but that's a loose interpretation.

So here are the pics of some of those same plants growing back after being cut back at the base. You can see that they look different, but very much like the botanical garden pics.







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InvisiblePoison Drink
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Re: Lactuca spp. [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #16481898 - 07/04/12 06:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the pictures WSS! The L. virosa definitely has a variant appearance although it's the same plant!

Quote:

World Seed Supply said:
Yeah I say sweet smelling, but that's a loose interpretation.




I have to revise my opinion, the remaining solution has quite a sweet scent now. It smells a bit like syrup made of apples and pears. But maybe my olfactory sense is playing tricks on me due to habituation (I'm constantly inhaling the fumes). The taste is getting more bitter though.

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